Lee Atherton is an end-of-life, grief, and resilience coach who helps people navigate the white waters of grief. Through her work as a first responder chaplain, she recognizes the demands of chaplains, clergy, funeral directors, and first responders who are the first to arrive and then usher people through life’s ending. To support them she has created programs to enhance their own resilience, working proactively to create systems of support before they are needed.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Supporting people through all stages of life
• The importance of caring for the Caregiver
• Surrounding yourself with people who recognize your value, and who you know you can count on when you need them
• The importance of having conversations – even and especially when they’re difficult
• Making the most of the time that we have

Professionals and caregivers will receive precious insights from Rev Lee’s free eBook, “Don’t Let the Well Run Dry: A collection of daily wisdom for those who serve others”. https://coachrev.activehosted.com/f/13

And those navigating the overwhelming journey of grief can explore and process their feelings with Rev Lee’s free Grief Journal – https://coachrev.activehosted.com/f/15

Susi Vine: Welcome back. I am so happy to have you with us this week. As I welcome Lee Atherton to join me today, coach rev Lee. She’s a woman of many, many talents. I’m know you’re going to enjoy this conversation. As we dive into the depth and breadth of her. Lee is a first responder chaplain and an end of life grief and resilience coach.

With over 15 years of experience, her passions are to help people live their dying by discovering the beauty and the process and the gifts to be found. To journey with people through the white waters of grief, navigating the chaos until they reach the twinkle pool of stillness and recognizing the demands of chaplains, clergy, funeral directors, and first responders who served during life’s ending to offer programs and support to enhance their own resiliency.

So you can already see, we’ve got plenty of things we could choose to talk about today, Liam. So glad you made time to join us. Thank you. 

Lee Atherton: Oh, thank you, Suzy. Wonderful to be invited here. Thank you. 

Susi Vine: And so you are a Reverend as well as a coach and your specialty is resilient. So what, and life is always kind of a winding path, but how did you come to be in this, this place of your specialty?

Lee Atherton: So it started that I would say it started way back when I was feeling that God wanted me to be a clergy person and someone I met along the way, thought I should be a hospice chaplain. And I said, yeah, no thanks.

Susi Vine: So you started out where a lot of us do death, not I’m not comfortable with that, 

Lee Atherton: right? Yeah. Time when I buy, she needed someone to cover an extended vacation and I was out of work. So yeah, I filled in and fell in love with hospice work. So that’s where, where the end of life and the grief coach can come in.

I was also doing life coaching at the time. And so there was a part of the dichotomy of end of life and creating life. So that, that has always just sort of informed what I do. I’ve also always been someone who looks behind the scenes and whoever’s working the hardest. What do you need that other people aren’t noticing and trying to, trying to fill in for that?

So caring for the caregiver has always been huge for me. And it’s that piece that brought me toward resilience, watching all these other people who give so much of themselves and are always on, right. If you’re having a bad day, you can’t be a funeral director and show up with a grumpy face. So how do you do that?

How do you be your best self so that you can continue? To fill it. We’re all called. And there’s a passion that brought us to this work that we do. How do you keep that passion alive? 

Susi Vine: Hmm, that is so many good things are gonna come out of this conversation because burnout is a real struggle. And when we identify powerfully with the work that we do, especially in this kind of work where you’re supporting people, moving through their own process of grief and loss or reckoning with their own illness and passing.

That’s a really, really demanding, like it’s, it’s hard not to feel that deeply. And we need our people in those positions to have access to those tools, to build their own resilience, because it’s such important work and we all deserve to have a bad day. We all deserve to have that opportunity to re rest and recover.

So learning that balance is I’m sure part of what you help guide them to discover. Yeah, that resilience is, is priceless. We’ve all got to have it. Whether or not we’re in that kind of role. It’s such an essential thing that some of us are born with it, but it’s definitely a tool that can be built and honed.

Lee Atherton: Absolutely. And I think that’s important for people to know is it’s not something that you’re either born with or without. Wherever you are when you’re born. It’s I call it building your muscles, strengthening your muscles, right? Yeah. And, and part of the resilience that I I teach about is you mentioned, we all deserve to have a bad day and take a nap or whatever.

Right. But often in these roles were called on in a moment’s notice. That’s true. Even if you’re having a bad day. You have no choice. You can’t say, oh, I just had a, I just was sobbing. So give me an hour while I look more pretty 

Susi Vine: just lay down for this nap. Let me call you back. And 45. Nope. Your shoes are already on by the time you’re off the phone, right?

Right. 

Lee Atherton: Yes. And so how do we keep on no matter what’s going on in our life, how do we show up as that professional who’s called to serve. Mm. Hmm. 

Susi Vine: And so what do you see or where do people tend to be when they come to you or when you see the opportunity to start this conversation, are there some ways in which people struggle with resilience that you kind of see any commonality?

Lee Atherton: The commonality I think is in what we in the field called the helping professions. And, and so my connection with being a clergy person, all of us certainly are the helping kind. And I find those people through. The work I do within my denomination. First responders, I’m a first responder chaplain.

So being there at all times, I’m always talking about resilience and offering them some of the training that I do. Same with the funeral directors. I’ve got some local ones that I’m their go-to person. And so a lot of it in that realm is word of mouth. And then certainly the resilience. Flows over into end of life and grief.

Yeah. 

Susi Vine: And so I love that you bring this breadth of your own experience and training, you know, through your clerical studies and experiences. And then the life coaching piece that I think beautifully compliments that, I mean, I, I was raised in the Methodist church. I think most ministers are reverence whether or not they’re formally trained.

Coaching is a big, big part of it. If you have a connection with the people in your congregation, you’re having conversations that are, that are pivotal in people’s life experience, right? When it comes to establishing relationships, building their families as their families change. So. I find this fascinating.

And I, I know a little bit of this, part of the story. So I’d love for you to share you were not someone who initially knew that you were called to this sort of work, at least in terms of entering the clergy. 

Lee Atherton: Yes. Oh, I was Hmm. I was going to say I was merely a secretary, but. I want to put a caveat there.

And I say merely because I had the message growing up, that was all I would ever amount to, but the secretary, I don’t even call them secretaries anymore. What any secretary that I have is my right hand person. Most of us would not be where we are today. If we didn’t have. Lots 

Susi Vine: of talks about having the finger on the pulse.

Certainly. Yes. 

Lee Atherton: So I became a church secretary and again, mom’s influence. She, even though I was an adult still. Her say, and if you know, what’s good for you, you’ll take this job. So needless to say, I took the job, came into it as a mom of three kids who knew it was the right thing to raise her kids in the church.

Not because I had any deep faith or anything out at the time. The pastor of the church. And I started within a day of each other. So we really got to know each other well and created systems and such and, and just a great connection. And he was the first person who ever told me you can be in, do anything.

And so that started to open my eyes between that and my faith really growing roots. In the, in the years that I, I served at that church. This was powerful, powerful, and I owe her. The job was just a small church and long story short, found myself in another position doing God’s work, but still as an administrator or an office administrator.

When I gave my notice to the board of deacons this gentlemen, Harold Buick Rhoda, I will never forget him. Jumped up out of his seat, ran across the room, gave me a great big hug and said, I am so glad that you’re finally going to go to seminary. You’re going to make a perfect chaplain. I mean, minister.

I didn’t say it was doing that. I said I was going to be an office person, but that definitely saw something that I wasn’t seeing. And in the, in the time that followed that, just other people affirming that he said, all right, I, you know, I heard God knocking on my heart and yeah, it was pretty powerful.

Susi Vine: I love that. I’m so glad you shared that story because I think that left to our own devices, our own resistance, you know, and lack of belief in ourselves can really hold us back. And so sometimes we need a mirror to reflect, oh, you can absolutely do this. Oh, this is perfect for you. Oh, of course. This has been waiting for you all along now.

You’re ready. Yeah. And it’s extraordinary when, when. Power comes together and moves you forward. And so like, like I said, you know, we, we don’t have a linear path per se, but I do believe we are led to be exactly where we are meant to. And then everything that we’ve experienced informs what we can share with the people we get to support.

Lee Atherton: I agree. And I, I incorporate that you use the word a mirror to yourself, and I incorporate that into being resilient. Surround yourself with people who care about you, who support you and who can remind you of who you really are. 

Susi Vine: Oh, that’s so powerful. Thank you. Who remind you, who you really are, who support you?

Who, who can see that when we lose that faith in ourselves? Yes, because resilience doesn’t come from a vacuum. You, you don’t live a life of Zen of blissful balance and come out a resilient spirit unless you’re innately, born with it. Odds are not in that favor. So we, we develop that. It’s like a muscle. We build that skill.

It’s tested by fire, but we always have that to carry forward with us. 

Lee Atherton: Yes. Mm. So my own life and the people who, when I was ready to give up on one thing or another. And the people who were there saying you matter, you count, or you can do this makes such a huge difference and remind you of the inner strength and courage and resilience that you’ve got to overcome and succeed.

Susi Vine: Yeah, we need those cheerleaders. And personally, I love getting to be that cheerleader for other people too. I can 

Lee Atherton: see that in you. 

Susi Vine: Let me shake off my pom-poms here. So in your experience, in, in your work with resilience what are some signs that people can look for? Or how, how can people recognize.

If they are resilient or, you know, how can they look to, to be building that for 

Lee Atherton: themselves?

The sign of resilience than a, and again, I’m going to use the group of people who I tend to work best winds. The signs of it are. Doing the challenging difficult work. And sometimes it’s just day to day work, but we’re often also called into the midst of trauma and chaos and overwhelm. And the sign of being resilient is when you can do that over and over again, but it’s not easy to do it over and over and over again.

And that’s where You need to bring in the tools you need to learn what works for you to keep going back there again and again. And although there are a lot of common tools it’s different for everyone. So self-care is definitely one of them and that Zen garden, ah, for some that is heaven on earth, but there are going to be some people who.

How are you kidding me? So it’s not just saying, yeah, self care. I should be doing that. I should go get a massage or whatever else, but what is, what turns you on, what do you really enjoy doing in life and, oh, by the way, when’s the last time you did it. That’s right. 

Susi Vine: That’s a piece of it. 

Lee Atherton: It’s, it’s learning.

Learning about yourself. What makes you tick? What are your, what are your hot buttons? Because when we’re aware of those hot buttons, we can better manage when they’re being pushed. And a lot of it is Thinking ahead of time. So I used the term pros, brilliance being proactive 

Susi Vine: pros, not a neat word.

Lee Atherton: Yes. Yeah. So don’t wait until the trauma or the crisis comes, but plan ahead of time. And we all have our world turns upside down at some point in our life. So it is important. Having the community around you. So we talk about who are your two AMRs, who are those people that you can call on no matter when.

Right. And. I use the image of a circle of people around you. You have a bunch of people around you that you can pick and choose that you kinda know, or yeah, I can call so-and-so when I’m having a bad day, whatever, but who are those people closest to you? Who are the ones that are right there around you who know you?

Well, no. What. You need, when you’re in that midst, stand in the middle of that circle, they have to be close enough together. So that, and we’ve all seen it that trust circle, close your eyes and fall back. Who are those people that you have in that tight circle? Okay. And if you don’t have them, and my course takes time, it takes the whole six weeks to who are they?

Who should they be? How do you nurture that? So that when that time comes, you can fall and know that you’re going to be caught.

And 

Susi Vine: so the underlying theme here that I’m seeing in, in your practice of is. Recognizing that life happens, we’re going to need support and. Rather than pretending it’s all going to be fine until we’re up to here up to our neck in it. What can we do to make sure we have this in place who is in our inner circle?

What helps us feel nourished and restored? Because self care is unique to everyone. If you’re tired of the pitches of self-care, because it’s become kind of a marketing ploy. Well, then that just means that you like something else. Right. It takes that self exploration to find it. And yeah. So to your point, you know, understanding what helps us feel happy, where we get our strength from having that tool kit already ready is so important because boy, when you’re in a situation, that’s all you can deal with.

You can’t be putting together your resources at that point. 

Lee Atherton: That’s absolutely right. And then after that situation, what do you do with the residual, the images, the thoughts, the feelings so that you can go do it again, because if we don’t have that. That post resilience just made that one up pile and pile and pile and pile until we’re drowning and we’re burned out.

Susi Vine: Right. And people in professional roles, such as clergy, first responders, chaplains get training. And understand that they have to have this tool planned as well, but I’m thinking of the caregivers at home, you know, when suddenly you need to take care of your spouse, or if you have a child that has special needs and you are just put in this role and accepted, you know, expected to step up and fill it.

My heart breaks for caregivers who don’t have the kind of understanding or support, or just don’t even even understand. Where they can reach out to find it because there are resources available. But again, once you’re in the thick of that situation, do you even have the energy or wherewithal to look up?

Lee Atherton: Exactly. And the answer to that is mostly no. And so they suffer and they. Reach difficult places, burnout and more for sure. 

Susi Vine: Yeah. Yeah. Caregiver fatigue is definitely real. And in my experience, working with the senior community, I was aware that in many cases, in those situations where a spouse becomes a caregiver for their partner, through that process of caring for their loved one, they tend to put their wellbeing last and then they tend to suffer.

And then who’s there to take care of, right. That initial person that needs the support. They both need it. Yeah, this recognition is important. And so, and I think too, a lot of people avoid conversations like this. What happens if someone is sick and I can’t take care of myself or what happens if I pass away?

Right. What resources do you have in place? How do we, do you have any tips? I’m going a little off book here, but do you have any tips for people to look somewhere and find resources? To understand having this conversation. 

Lee Atherton: Yes, I do. In fact, that’s another big piece of what I do. I started years ago, just facilitating a conversation about something called the five wishes.

And that is a legal document for planning for end of life. And it’s so much more than just a will or your medical choices. It’s the choices about where do you want to die? Who do you want to make the healthcare decisions for you and other decisions? What kind of medical treatment do you want how comfortable do you want and be, how do you want people to treat you?

Who do you want to be around you? What do you want your family to know? So there’s so many more questions. And just slows that was traditionally think about, and I really encourage people to start the conversation early. At whatever age, you’re never too young to start the conversation because you don’t know when some crisis is going to hit.

That brings you much closer to that than you ever thought would be the case. So there are a lot of resources for that. There’s there is the five wishes document that people can find. I also offer a workshop and a course on how do I start thinking about these questions and what is my answer? How do I figure out what my answer is?

I use an example of a woman who who I talked to and talking about her level of pain. She was a Roman Catholic woman and her response was don’t give me any pain medication. My Jesus died on the suffered and died for me. It’s the least I can do to suffer for him. And then there are people who give me whatever I need.

I don’t want any pain at all. That’s not something you want to think about in the midst of being rushed into the ER. Right, right. There’s so many questions like that. And then of course there are tools and resources. You can find anything on Amazon. There are cards that I always use called the go wish cards that just ask some questions and get you thinking 

Susi Vine: about making note of those.

Go 

Lee Atherton: wish farts go wish.

And then how, you know, it’s more than just making a choices, but having the conversations. So people know what those wishes are. And there are lots of resources for that. There’s I keep saying, I’m going to start one of these and I will the death cafe. 

Susi Vine: yeah. I love this concept. Yeah. 

Lee Atherton: Where you go and just hang out with people and very informally talk about death.

And sometimes it’s starting that conversation with a stranger. That opens the door to the possibility of having the conversation with your loved ones, 

Susi Vine: because it’s not an easy conversation to have. And, and I, I think what I’m picking up out of what you’re saying too, I mean, there’s a lot here and I’m so glad it’s recorded.

People can come back and listen again. Is that it’s something you have to start with taking a look at for yourself and then. You have to find a way to bring your family or loved ones into the conversation. Step one can be very difficult. Step two can be even more so and not to be irreverent, but none of us are getting out of this alive.

Lee Atherton: Exactly. We had to be 

Susi Vine: sure.

And so I think, I think it’s really important. If only because with that recognition and awareness, we stop wasting our time and make the most of the gift that is in each. 

Lee Atherton: Yes. Yes. And you know, I’ll tell you something, Susie. I I’ve worked with so many families whose loved one has died and I have never once heard anyone say I’m so angry.

They thought about this ahead of time. Right? It’s always, even to the point of planning a funeral. W, why do you want your own funeral to look like those family members have always said. So glad this was the best gift she could’ve given us. Now I know what dad wants and what he doesn’t want, and I don’t have to make those decisions.

Susi Vine: Oh my gosh. And that situation, I mean, I’ve seen people struggle through that. It’s devastating at a time at which you deserve that opportunity to just work through your own. Grief and loss to have to show up and be answering. And yeah, that’s utterly overwhelming, not a situation we want our loved ones to be in.

Exactly. 

Lee Atherton: And, 

Susi Vine: and, and again, circling back around to, to our first topic, you know, the people who are on the other side of the table, who, you know, are grateful for the times when they have the conversations, when here’s, what’s been decided, here’s what we’ve already planned. Okay, here are the times something that can be as straightforward as that is easier on them as well.

Not that you know, you’re thinking of their wellbeing when it’s your loved one who has passed. But again, just in terms of, of recognizing the ripple effect, right. You know, everything we do has an impact that’s greater than we are. And but it is a special calling. Okay. To people who can work in hospice to work with those life transitions and hold that space.

That’s a powerful ability skill that’s acquired, but also a grace that I think certain people are born with. 

Lee Atherton: Yes, I definitely couldn’t do it without God’s grace showering me. 

Susi Vine: Yeah. We need something more than ourselves. 

Lee Atherton: Yep. 

Susi Vine: Well, we just, we already talked about some resources. Are there any others that you find beneficial or like to point people to, in terms of navigating grief or loss, or just building resilience?

We talked about some practices and self-awareness, are there some other tools that. 

Lee Atherton: There are I, I think in terms of when people are in grief, it can be really helpful to reach out to someone who knows and understands grief and who, who focuses specializes in that area. It doesn’t have to be a therapist or a counselor.

That’s not what I’m saying, but I know for my own self. With this being a main focus of my ministry, I have gleaned and use and refined so many tools and resources in many different situations. You have young children in your life. How do you talk to your children? You know, there are great books on that, or were all disagreeing about what to do with mom’s ashes.

How do you have those conversations going to someone who’s been through it and who knows can save a lot of heartache, a lot of guilt and pain. And just make the, the, the journey I call grief, the journey, riding the white waters. Right. I can make that a whole lot easier and don’t be afraid to reach out look online.

Be kind to yourself cause we get overwhelmed and just can’t function during grief at times and that’s okay. Be patient be kind. Yeah. 

Susi Vine: Yeah. And I have a client right now who A member of her family is in hospice. And so they’re a partner then has access to, to grief counseling before they’ve lost their spouse, which I think is deeply powerful too.

So in another, just another example of don’t wait until. You need that resource to be relying on it. If there’s any inclination, if there’s an indication that this is a change that’s coming, it’s so supportive to get that help in 

Lee Atherton: advance. Yes. And a person who becomes a hospice patient is going to have that resource offered to their family.

But unfortunately too often, people don’t realize that they, that hospice is an option as soon as it is. And so they don’t have that support. How do we navigate this? How do we, how do I, if I’m the one who’s dying. Take this time that’s left and make the most out of it. And what does that mean to me? Well, we don’t think about that.

You know, if you were told today that next Tuesday at four o’clock was going to be the end of your life do you know what often we don’t and we work in a bubble, right. And it’s helpful to have a conversation with someone. Family member a loved one, a good friend, but even someone outside of that sphere.

Cause you know what it’s hard stuff to talk about. And a lot of people are going to protect those people who care about them and not share openly anonymously and fully. And then their loved ones. What do I want to make sure that my sister knows. Before she dies. I want to make sure that she knows how much I love her and hope.

Gee, I haven’t said that to her in years. So, so many pieces.

Susi Vine: Yeah. I think the, the, the benefits of having that awareness and. You know, whatever it takes, whether it’s just listening to this or different life experience that says yes, waiting, isn’t doing me any justice or anyone else that I love. So Carpay the DM.

Yes. Beautiful. I love your breadth of experience. And the relate-ability. Your sense of humor throughout. I think it really shines a light on the fact that, you know, we can make things big and scary and threatening and avoid them. And if we just get present and open ourselves to opportunities and resources, that big, scary thing that we’re putting on.

It’s very easy to take to tackle. And then what else can we conquer too while we’re at it, right? Yeah. 

Lee Atherton: Yep. And it doesn’t have to be one big, giant step or one big gulp. When we start thinking about it ahead of time, we can take our time to think about a DNR. For example, there’s so much. The goes into figuring that out, that you can’t decide that in one night.

Right. But if you start long ahead, you can start thinking about it and all right, I’ve had enough. I need to put this away for right now and come back to it. The gift for yourself as well. It is, 

Susi Vine: it is. And thank you for that because it, it can be a process of warming up to it. Accepting it, you know, it’s not just flipping a switch and saying, okay, well we’ve all got to do it.

So I’ll just get it all handled in the next three days or something. But giving ourselves that grace to say, all right, I’m just going to start the process. I’m going to take a look at what I can do to support myself and my. Exactly. Yeah. And so you have to share a special little ebook. I love this.

Don’t let the well run dry. Tell us a little bit about this ebook that folks can collect from you. Ah, 

Lee Atherton: It is, it’s a short book and it’s got Quotes and reflections and words of encouragement so that you don’t, you know, I think of the, well, you pull up the pale of water and you give it, pull up the pale of water and you give it.

And if you don’t find a way to fill that wet, well, back up, you’re not going to give anymore. So ideas and thoughts, things to think about. So that, that proposal piece. Right. And I I’d like to also, if I can throw this in there because we did talk about grief. I also have a grief journal and ebook grief journal that I would love your listeners to have access to.

Susi Vine: We’ll grab that link from you as well, because I know. Yeah, especially always, that’s always something that’s powerful to have access to. Certainly, I mean, life happens and you’re both of them. I love that it’s a grief journal and your daily wisdoms in the don’t let the well run dry book. It really strikes me as an opportunity for, you know, something to spark meditation or again, a journaling prompt, something that.

Because journaling is so powerful. It’s such a terrific tool for self reflection and for kind of burning through the mental chatter and getting to what’s underneath of that, we don’t often give ourselves that space to look a little more deeply. We settle for that surface noise and really what’s percolating underneath is what we really need to be able to say.

Lee Atherton: Yeah. And when I talk to people about journaling There’s there’s a whole process for sure. If you want to get into it of being in this mindset, just let your thoughts go and all of that. But I think it’s important for people to know that journaling doesn’t have to be all of that as well. Take one of the questions from the grief journal and let that be what you ponder on your ride to work.

It doesn’t have to be. A big project that you don’t know how to do. 

Susi Vine: Yes. I love that and everything and everything in between. It’s wonderful to have these little seeds, just plant this little seed and see if it stays with you through the day. It might come back to you a couple of days later, but when the time is right.

Lee Atherton: Yup. It’ll route. That is, yes, it will. 

Susi Vine: Thank you so much. You’re very kind. We’ll have links for these two resources in the show notes. Is there anything else you’d love to share while we’re together?

Lee Atherton: Just whoever you are and wherever you are on live, Sterny you matter and you count. And so take care of yourself and be kind to yourself and never hesitate to ask for what you need. 

Susi Vine: Hmm. Thank you for that. Yeah, we should never underestimate what we bring. To the lives of those who are around us. Some of us have a big calling.

Some of us might be a first responder or a chaplain and touched countless lives. And some of us, the ripples are not known to us, but every one matters. Yes. 

Lee Atherton: That secretary I told you about who was told that’s all she’d be after I, in that time, when I was, am I really being calm? I got word that someone stopped in the office and the pastor wasn’t there.

And I just had a conversation wasn’t any big deal to me. And I learned later that that conversation saved her life. She was. Considering suicide. So you’re right. You never know what impact you’re making. What difference you make?

Susi Vine: Thank you for shining your light in the worldly. It is such a blessing to know you. I’m so grateful to be collaborating with you on some projects that are coming together. So yeah, probably have another show in the future, but thanks everybody for tuning into. I hope that whatever message comes to you today serves you and definitely worth a listen again.

Cause there’s a lot of good stuff in here. So thank you, Lee so much. Oh, and 

Lee Atherton: thank you 

Susi Vine: very much. Take care of 

Lee Atherton: yourself. You too. Bye friends.